This podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates ''Before Psychology''- the Secret Source' that exponentially increases the peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
What if the 'me' trying to access flow and presence is itself the misunderstanding?
In this episode, Piers continues his conversation with Deborah Hurwitz, host of the Productivity for Perfectionists Summit®
After their first conversation opened up powerful questions around procrastination, perfectionism, flow and the deeper nature of mind, they recorded a further conversation to explore the central question underneath everything:
Who, or what, is really in charge?
Deborah begins with a distinction familiar to many high achievers, creatives and perfectionists: the difference between flow and presence. Flow can seem like the state where the self disappears and life simply moves. Presence can seem like something more deliberate: the self stepping back, observing, witnessing, noticing and trying to become more grounded.
But as the conversation unfolds, that distinction begins to loosen.Piers invites Deborah into a direct inquiry into the nature of self, attention, body, sensation, perception and awareness. Rather than trying to understand consciousness as a concept, they look directly at what is available in experience.
Where is the “me” that owns attention? Where is the personal, localised consciousness that seems to be “in here”?
Do we actually experience the body directly, or only through thought, sensation and perception? And is the body the container of consciousness, or does the body appear within consciousness?
The key distinction that emerges is this:
The body-mind is not an entity that has consciousness.
It is an activity of consciousness.
This begins to shift Deborah’s understanding of presence.
Presence is no longer another job for the self to perform. It is not the perfectionist self becoming a better observer. It is not “Deborah” taking responsibility for witnessing experience more skilfully. Instead, presence begins to look more like coming home.
By the end of the episode, Deborah sees that even the role of “observer” can become another subtle responsibility for the self.
And then something lands:
What if presence is not “I am observing”?
What if even the responsibility of being the observer can be released?
This is not a tidy teaching. It is a live inquiry.
A conversation about flow, presence, consciousness, identity, responsibility and the case of mistaken identity.
And it points to the the heart of Quality of Mind: Undoing The Case of Mistaken Identity
The one trying to be in charge may be part of the very misunderstanding we are looking through.
Highlights
02:05 — Deborah’s hunger for a different conversation
Deborah describes why the first episode went somewhere different from conventional psychology, trauma, patterning or behavioural approaches.
05:28 — Flow versus presence
Deborah names the distinction she wants to explore: flow as an unselfconscious state, and presence as being aware of being here, now.
09:19 — Where do you think you are?
Piers asks the question that shifts the episode: in either flow or presence, where does Deborah think she is?
09:48 — The location of consciousness
Deborah names the question she had almost brought into the conversation: what is the location of consciousness?
11:34 — Entering direct inquiry
Piers invites Deborah to look directly, in real time, without relying on concepts, models or inherited ideas.
15:36 — “My attention”
Deborah notices that attention moves, but still feels like “my attention”. Piers explores how the “my” is created.
16:43 — Can you find the “my” entity?
The inquiry turns towards whether the separate owner of attention can actually be found before thought, sensation and perception.
21:24 — How do you know you have a body?
Piers brings the inquiry into the body, asking how the body is known in direct experience.
25:36 — The body appears in consciousness
A key pointer: the body may not have consciousness inside it. The body may appear in consciousness.
28:13 — The missing piano and the collapse of orientation
Deborah shares an experience from music production where a missing piano part briefly removed her usual sense of labelling, positioning and organisation.
31:21 — No labelling, no positioning, no identification
Deborah sees how, in that moment, there was experience before the usual “me” had decided what it was.
34:34 — What comes and goes?
Piers points to how thoughts, sensations, perceptions and even the idea of “me” come and go within experience.
37:29 — Which “I” are we talking about?
The conversation distinguishes between the personal self and the deeper “I” of consciousness itself.
38:06 — Water and whirlpools
Piers introduces the metaphor of consciousness as water and the body-mind as a whirlpool.
39:54 — Activity, not entity
The central insight: localised consciousness is not a separate entity. The body-mind is an activity of consciousness.
40:09 — A significant distinction
Deborah recognises that “activity, not entity” changes something important.
43:09 — Whirlpools are not separate from water
The metaphor lands more clearly: the body-mind is not separate from consciousness, just as a whirlpool is not separate from water.
44:21 — The continuity of “me”
Deborah asks what explains the felt continuity of herself from childhood to now. Piers suggests that the continuity we sense may not be the continuity of the body-mind, but the continuity of consciousness itself.
46:33 — A consoling realisation
Deborah says this is a new for her, and that she finds it consoling.
47:10 — Freedom from fixing the self
Deborah begins to see that she may not need to be saddled with fixing, improving, reaching for authenticity or achieving wholeness at the level of the self.
49:39 — Psychological freedom from being the driver
Piers points to the freedom that comes from not needing to be the body-mind self pushing and managing everything.
50:06 — Real but never true
They return to the Quality of Mind phrase “real and never true”: experience is vivid, felt and alive, but not ultimately true in the way it appears.
50:33 — The sky is not damaged by the storm
Piers uses the sky and screen metaphors to point to what remains untouched by the changing weather of experience.
51:27 — Undoing the flow/presence distinction
Deborah brings the episode back to its original question: can the distinction between flow and presence now be seen differently?
52:12 — The observer as another responsibility
Deborah sees that her old understanding of presence still put the self in charge as the observer.
53:24 — Releasing even the observer
Deborah asks what happens if even the responsibility of being the observer is released.
The episode lands in Deborah’s insight: presence may be less about doing and more about coming home.
56:18 — Aperture, expansion and contraction
Piers connects the metaphor to aperture: when consciousness is contracted, separation feels real; when expanded, the separate doer is less obvious.
This episode explores
- Why flow and presence can look like two different states
- How the self can subtly try to manage both flow and presence
- What direct inquiry is, and why it differs from conceptual understanding
- The assumption that there is a “me” who owns attention
- How thought, sensation and perception create the appearance of “my body”
- Why the body may appear in consciousness rather than consciousness living inside the body
- The difference between the body-mind as an entity and the body-mind as an activity
- The water and whirlpool metaphor for individuality and consciousness
- Why the sense of continuity from childhood to adulthood may not be what we think it is
- How the observer role can become another subtle form of self-identification
- Why coming home may be closer than trying to become present
- What this means for perfectionism, self-improvement, creativity and responsibility
Why this matters
Many thoughtful, driven people spend enormous energy trying to improve themselves.
They try to manage thoughts, regulate the nervous system, access flow, practise presence, become authentic, overcome limiting beliefs and find the right inner state.
Some of that may be useful.
But this episode points somewhere more upstream.
What if the self trying to do all of that is not what we fundamentally are?
What if the one trying to manage experience is itself part of the psychological activity?
What if peace, flow and presence are not produced by the self, but become more obvious when the self is seen differently?
This does not mean life stops happening.
Creativity continues. Responsibility continues. Action continues. The form still functions.
But the body-mind no longer has to carry the impossible burden of being what we are.
Resources & links
Their first conversation The Hidden Cause of Procrastination — It’s Not ''What'' You Think
Deborah helps smart, thoughtful perfectionists get unstuck, move towards what matters, and relate differently to the pressure, overthinking and exhaustion that can come with high standards. https://cobaltcoaching.com/
Explore The Telepathy Tapes, mentioned briefly in this episode, It is included here as a pointer to curiosity about consciousness, https://thetelepathytapes.com/
Explore all things Quality of Mind: https://www.qualityofmind.biz/
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace and potential. https://piers-xruoj0sz.scoreapp.com/
Audio Intro Short Course
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology.
https://qualityofmind.online/courses/qomaudiointrocourse/
YouTube Explainer — What is Before Psychology?
A clear short introduction to why Quality of Mind points before conventional psychology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99iy9yiCeM
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind:
https://qualityofmind.biz/real-results/
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/piersthurston
Subscribe to the Quality of Mind YouTube channel for short insight videos exploring Before Psychology:
https://www.youtube.com/c/qualityofmind
For a more in-depth look into the Direct Inquiry and non-dual understanding behind Quality of Mind, explore TASTE THE MANGO: YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TASTETHEMANGO
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